EP. 08: Interview with Bobbi + Baby’s Only
This was such a fun opportunity to get to interview Shira Page, RN, NP, CLC who’s the medical team lead for Bobbi + Baby’s Only formula. Her own feeding journey as well as her work as a nurse practitioner and certified lactation consultant has completely reshaped the way she sees healthy feeding. “5 years ago if you would have told me I’d be working at an infant formula company, I wouldn’t have believed you!”
The experience of motherhood is so humbling … even those of us who work in a clinical setting and who feel we have a good grasp on things find various aspects of motherhood to be a curve ball. Shira and I openly share how much we’ve learned by being moms. Unfortunately, we don’t all have that inherent community through holistic, natural interventions… When you look at the research on breast feeding, we still don’t truly understand milk production or how the thyroid and endocrine system impacts our ability to maintain milk supply. We hope for a world that continues to study this and, in the mean, time provides a safe, acceptable way to care for our babies that includes a happy feeding journey.
Bobbi is a European-style formula meaning its iron and DHA levels meet both the EU and FDA requirements; Baby’s Only meets FDA requirements and iron levels for the EU. Both brands are organic, palm oil and maltodextrin free, and 100% lactose based. As we know, palm oil leaches calcium from our bones, so this fact is definitely important to me and my moms. Shira mentions all of the ‘love letters’ Bobbi has received when it comes to relieving babies (and mommas) of reflux or colic gone as they can finally metabolize well and maintain a balanced weight. I have sampled their products and now use them for my own baby girl and would love to help you connect with this brand!
Show Notes
1
0:00:00
I have my best friend has done two home births and God bless you guys I don't know how how you do it because I have two one was a c-section one was a VVAC, and I'm pregnant with my third. And I don't think I have the pain intensity tolerance to do home births.
2
0:00:35
Well, I only actually delivered the second at home,
1
0:00:38
the first, which is very common, as you probably know, was a home birth transfer for just a long labor. And then my second was at home, like peak COVID, and if we have a third, I just don't know that it happened in me. I'm just like, you know what, just go to the hospital. It's also a lot of logistical work, I mean, you just like the prep and all the supplies you have to get, You know, it's not cheap either, unfortunately. So, I might have gotten my home birth experience checked off. That was enough, right? Might have been enough, yeah. I did my VBAC last year. Total, total difference in the C-section. And I'm like, no one talks about this. No one warns you about going through any of this. So that's cool that you were able to share your story. Yeah, it was really fun. I think I'd be curious to listen back. I usually don't listen to podcasts that I'm on because I like, I don't like the sound of my own voice, but it would be interesting to look back and hear kind of my perspective now when you start to forget everything so far removed versus I think I did that podcast maybe nine months goes part of here. So how long have you worked for Bobby? I have worked for Bobby coming up on two years in May. So, you know, career trajectory is not a super long time, but things move so fast in this startup space, especially being a relatively young company. That two years seems like a really long time. Right, well I feel like for such a young company,
2
0:02:35
because my son is three and I don't think you guys were around when he was born, so I used a different formula, but I've been able to use it for my daughter, which is fantastic.
1
0:02:46
I feel like you guys have grown quite a bit since you've come on the scene. Yeah, absolutely. So this past summer, I think we talked about this, we have the privilege of acquiring a manufacturing facility. So we have our very own manufacturing facility. It is based in Ohio, and that is the Nature's One babies-only brand that we acquired. So that's led to a whole new avenue of growth and just shaping the business to be a company that includes a manufacturing facility, kind of changes things, it changes priorities. You know, we have went from being kind of more of like the way a tech company might operate, like a very modern, fully remote company, you know, to having a whole on-the-ground division that's focused on manufacturing and has to really prioritize that to make sure that we're creating a safe product for babies.
2
0:03:55
Yeah, that is so cool because I'm in Northwest Ohio, so that's super close to me.
1
0:04:00
Oh, perfect.
2
0:04:01
Yeah, it's fantastic. So when, like Meijer carries the brand in the stores, which when I make these recommendations to patients, I know a big barrier is how can I access it or where can I buy it? So that's really been nice to see.
1
0:04:18
Yeah, the babies only products are available in tons of stores, you know, in my area. Like there's a CVS every few miles, and they're in CVS, Target, many grocers, and I think you'll start to see them in some new places too. So that's very exciting, that you can just kind of pop out if you have an emergency and go get the product. Exactly, I know last fall, my daughter was three months, and I did not pack her formula for a football game. So I maddingly ran into Walmart and looked at the formula options. I'm like, Oh, no, because it wasn't being carried there yet. And I just looked, I probably spent 25 minutes looking at
2
0:05:06
labels on certain ingredients to avoid. And best one I could at the time. So yeah, it is really nice to have a clean option available.
1
0:05:18
Yeah and access is a huge priority for us. We know that you know it's great that people can have a subscription but that obviously isn't there right away when you need it. So we're definitely working on making both brands as accessible as possible to parents.
2
0:05:38
Wonderful. Is there, because I've recommended both to patients, is there a difference in the formulations with the two brands, or how would you compare those?
1
0:05:48
Yeah, you know, it's really focused on parent preference. So, Bobby is European style. You know, that language has kind of resonated less and less after the enforcement discussion that happened during the FIN formula shortage when we had a lot of European companies start to be here, you know, for a longer term and some more permanently. But when we say European style, what we mean is that it has IRNN and DHA that meets the EU guidelines. And then of course it also meets the FDA requirements. And then babies only is not meeting those EU guidelines for DHA. Some parents prefer not to have a DHA in their product for various reasons or some parents are combo feeding. So you know they're getting a lot of the DHA that they need from breast milk. And then they can also just supplement with DHA if that's something that their pediatrician recommends. So that's really the main difference. Other than that, both products are organic. They don't have palm oil or corn syrup or multidextrin. And they're both 100% lactose-based. So that means that the primary carbohydrate source in them is lactose, which is that same sugar that is the primary carbohydrate source in
2
0:07:22
breast milk. Yeah, I really appreciate that. When I was looking for a formula for my children, not having that palm oil, because as you well know, that has been shown to leach calcium from bones, and there's so many other side effects from those ingredients. So yeah, I really appreciate the cleanliness of your products.
1
0:07:44
Yeah, you know, parents just wanna have, they wanna have more options. They don't wanna just go and be forced to use something. I think that's one thing that's kind of broken for parents who are delivering in the hospital setting right now, is they're really not given a lot of optionality if they're going to be using formula because there's usually just one product that's stocked in the hospital. Sometimes they're even told that they're not allowed to use formula that they bring from outside. So I think that's also a big area for improvement and allowing those options straight from birth. Yeah, that's a great point and I'm sure it depends of course on the hospital system. I know ours here, of course, there's like one brand that they support and of course like when I have gone for my prenatal visits, you get this little coupon book of all the formulas and all these freebies, always the same companies. So it is, it's so nice to have different options and I think parents are becoming more aware of the ingredients, what they want to give their babies
2
0:08:54
versus what they don't want.
1
0:08:55
Yeah, I think the ingredient aspect is huge. We also see that there's just a big aspect of trust and that these companies that have been around for a long time, they're sometimes giant, international companies, are just not what parents are looking for and they want a company where they feel like they can know who's making their formula, understand where it's coming from in the country or that it is even coming from somewhere in the country, not traveling halfway around the world, and then also seeing that the company kind of listens and hears feedback that they continue to use science to innovate on their products. Those are all things that we're really focusing on.
2
0:09:44
Yeah, I absolutely love that. I know when I've recommended your products to patients, you know, they've gone through certain brands and their little ones have had a lot of reflux and a lot of colic. And then we switched to, of course, a cleaner brand and they metabolize everything so much better, they gain weight, they just thrive. Do you have any testimonials that you can think of offhand or like a running theme that you've noticed from your clientele?
1
0:10:17
You know, I mostly work with healthcare professionals not on the customer side. I think that we hear fantastic feedback all the time. We call them love letters of parents writing in that they've found that one of our products is like the only thing that worked for their baby and that is so miraculous because we all know that feeling of like just having a fussy baby that nothing seems to be working and then suddenly getting that relief is just, that's the best thing in the world is a tired parent I Think that for both our brands, you know We do see that parents who are combo feeding or supplementing tend to find that it is a seamless transition or that the products work easily for their baby and some of that might be that a hundred percent lactose aspect and but We really also find that there is an element of confidence, you know, and that if you feel kind of lousy about a product that you're using or you're not excited about it or you don't feel good about that brand, I think that parents can sometimes be more likely to just feel like it's not the right fit for their baby. So, you know, we love, there's nothing better than the overwhelming feedback that we get. I don't have anything specific offhand. You know, obviously, we're just hearing, like we're biased because we're hearing from our customers. But we do hear a lot of the times about that feeling of relief, that like I've tried so many products, we've been switching, nothing's working and then it's like just magic and that comes we get those love letters for both brands and you know we have under Bobby there's two infant formulas, routine product which is an intact protein and then we also have a gentle product which is a partially hydrolyzed protein and so you know we hear that all the time for both of those, and then under babies only, there is a routine product, and then there's actually an A2, made from A2 milk, which some babies and parents find is just better tolerated or more easily digested.
2
0:12:44
Absolutely, that's a great point. I know a lot of times what I appreciate about your brands are the research, number one, because I'm definitely a research girl, and number two, it just, as you said, like the seamless transition when you're breastfeeding and maybe switching from that transition of adding formula in, babies do really well with that. And I've had so many patients have those light bulb moments where they try your brands and baby sleeps better and
1
0:13:17
just is thriving. So that's so good to hear. Yeah it's such a relief when you especially if you're introducing formula you know not from a place of confidence or in the midst of struggling with a breastfeeding journey or weight gain difficulty. That's such a stressful time and then on top of that to have like, oh, I don't know if the formula itself is causing issues. This is a whole new project I have to take care of. I know for me, I didn't try formula until my second, and she was quite old. I mean, she was close to nine months, I think, when we introduced formula. And I had just heard so many things about like babies being constipated or like the perfusing it or all these like problems that you know you hear from parents about introducing formula to a breastfed baby and there were just no issues and it was the biggest the biggest relief she tolerated and loved Bobby without any issue. Yeah I would agree I've had a couple of patients that have kind of reached their limit and have come to me for advice and as you well know it makes a difference if they're like c-section or of course a vaginal birth with that gut flora but so many patients as you said where the babies aren't pooping and they have to like digitally help them and that just blows as a practitioner and a mom now looking back it's like that's not normal. You know, and so having a healthy brand to recommend
2
0:14:54
is just such a relief.
1
0:14:56
It helps everyone to have a product that parents feel confident about. Yes, and I know a lot of the cool thing about the Bobby I love is on the top of the cans, you guys have these little encouragement sayings. And it's so fun because when you open a new can, you get a new little encouragement thing. I think moms love that. Yes, we get a lot of good feedback about that. I mean, it should be a fun, positive experience. Feeding your baby should be exciting, something that you're confident in, that makes you see how much hard work you're doing. And I think sometimes we only reserve those positive feelings for someone who is breastfeeding or exclusively pumping. And we don't have enough positive sentiment against parents who are doing all different types of feeding whatever that looks like. Exactly I would agree. Now do you guys have any new and upcoming products on either of those brands? Yeah I mean we are constantly innovating we have a robust research and development team we're always like, you know, I know that all brands say we're listening. Thanks for your feedback But we definitely are listening, you know We collect those comments on Instagram and the customer emails that we got to help build our products pipeline. So that's really exciting Unfortunately, we can almost never talk about products before they're finally like done and dusted on the Bobby side launch what we're calling Boosties, which are infant supplements. So we have a clean vitamin D, and then we have a probiotic for colic. So those are really exciting because they're good for all infants, not just formula fed infants. So parents, you know, I kind of know when I was an exclusively breastfeeding parent and I followed Bobby, I was like, I don't need formula, but I want to be a part of this brand somehow. So now those parents who are exclusively breastfeeding have a product that they can get from us as well. As you know, babies who are exclusively breastfed typically need to be supplemented with vitamin D. So that is a daily thing and something that's really nice that we now have an option for parents that doesn't have any additives. There are some vitamin D's on the market that just have like a bunch of other stuff in them that has nothing to do with vitamin D. So that's really nice and then you know the probiotic is an evidence-based strain for colic or infant gut issues, digestion, fossey babies, that sort of thing. So we have seen really positive feedback about that so far. I can't share the data yet, but just some customer sentiment has been really positive about that for babies.
2
0:17:57
That's so exciting because, I don't wanna say it takes the guesswork out of it, but it makes moms and dads lives so much more simpler than looking for a probiotic, looking for a D supplementing on their own. If you guys provide that, that's fantastic. And yeah, I would agree. I feel like all babies need good gut flora because whether it's a V-bag or a C-section, you know, they might get antibiotics or medications and that can affect everything. And then the other
1
0:18:42
thing that just blows my mind is that with the prenatal care, they never check for vitamin D for moms, you know. So mom, of course baby's going to be low. So that's just, that's a no-brainer to me. And the survey was predominantly taken by registered nurses working in pediatrics and dietitians. But, you know, a lot of them didn't know that vitamin D does transfer in breast milk because they think they thought that it just must not transfer and that's why babies have to supplement. And then a lot of them also didn't really understand the potential of maternal vitamin D deficiency to impact an infant. So definitely some knowledge gaps on the clinical side as well. And I think there's this kind of vague recommendation that you can supplement with vitamin D as a breastfeeding parent in high doses, but I think there's just not enough data to integrate that into the guidelines at the moment. And it also is kind of like, okay, which thing is easier to do? Like, give the baby the vitamin D drops or then have to take all this vitamin D for yourself. And then, you know, if a baby is combo feeding, there's some risk of the baby ending up with too much vitamin D if the mom is really overdosing herself. So it is interesting, I think I would love to see more data about how parents can have options. Like, okay, if you don't wanna give your baby a supplement and you want a supplement, then go for it. But I think we need a little bit more research first.
2
0:20:14
Yeah, and as you said, there's always a delay in what the research shows versus public knowledge and provider intervention at that clinical setting. Totally, yeah. Yeah. Now with your background with lactation consulting, tell me a little bit about common barriers that you've seen with
1
0:20:38
new moms, just things that you feel like aren't being addressed or talked about, where would I begin? You know, I come from a very breastfeeding heavy background, like just how I was raised, my initial perceptions of infant feeding, you know, my first was exclusively breastfed until she was two and a half, I want to say, and I never once considered formula an option. Like she had a ton of weight gain issues. I would say in hindsight her feeding experience was pretty easy but it wasn't easy just like relative to what can happen out there. You know I was very stressed about her weight, cried about it all the time. We had so many lactation consultant visits but we kind of powered through and I guess it all worked out. And then I became a CLC because, you know, I was working as a nurse practitioner and I just felt like there were these massive knowledge gaps that parents had. A great example is low supply. Parents are often very nervous that they have a low supply and sometimes they don't. It's just that they're anxious about it. They don't understand how to interpret feeding cues or signs that a baby's getting enough milk. And so, you know, I became a CLC. I started doing some private practice work during COVID under both the assumption and the training from, you know, my education that women are really just missing support and education, right? That like, if we just had enough support and education, everyone could breastfeed. And I started working with parents. And, you know, I did have some parents where that was the case. But I also quickly realized that there were a lot of people where that wasn't the case. These were, you know, like directors at biotech companies with the best lactation consultants in the world with you know previous babies that had breastfed and there was just something going on that they couldn't unlock. You know whether that is the baby had oral motor issues that weren't addressed with a revision or chiropractic or any sort of oral motor physical therapy. Or, you know, they just couldn't get their supply, no matter how much they pumped, just not get it ready to be like these, these very real kind of medical issues that seemed a lot more pervasive than I had been educated that they were. And then just parents who it was just not the right fit. Like they just, they just weren't about it. Like, it was not fitting with their postpartum experience for whatever reason. So I kind of was starting to have this cognitive dissonance about my previous conceptions about feeding and then I had my second baby and I was like so pumped to have the most beautiful breastfeeding experience. You know, we were talking about before I started recording that I had a home birth with her. So I was like, okay, you know, no interventions that will mess up early bonding. I'm a CLC. I'm a second time mom, like, I get to work from home because it's COVID. Like this is going to be easy breezy, perfect feeding experience. You know, I'll pump to keep my supply up, Mr. Fast Feeding. And, you know, I have still And I still to this day have no idea what's going on with her, but she could just not suck, which is in pediatrics a pretty big red flag, actually. She was not able to have a suck reflex. We saw every specialist out there. I had some of the best IV CLCs probably in the country supporting me. We had a tongue-tie revision. We saw a PT at Boston Children's Speech Therapy, chiropractic, another PT that was more like alternative health specializing in babies and feeding. And no matter what we did, like she could only nurse with a nipple shield and then could like finished two ounces of a bottle over an hour. So my entire life was just consumed by trying to feed her, stressing out about making sure she was eating enough for about four months. And during that time, I still like had some mental block to using formula, which, you know, in the context of what we had going on, definitely would have alleviated some of the pressure and postpartum depression that I ended up experiencing because I was not only focused on feeding her but I needed to pump every three seconds that I had because I was so nervous that I would like not have a full milk supply if she ever ended up breastfeeding. And I think you know despite not using formula during that journey, it just kind of changed my whole concept because the first time that I understood that feeding could be that dark of an experience and that, you know, breastfeeding would really be like the worst thing on earth for someone and destroy their relationship with their baby, really negatively impact their mental health. And also say, you know, that does not mean that someone has to have that dark of an experience to decide that they want a formula feed. That's not a prerequisite at all. But just for me personally, it really helped shift my mindset. And then I think I also felt very betrayed by the breastfeeding education and dogma that, you know, going back to that sentiment that parents just need education and support is really gaslighting for women. It's not true at all. Like, they need options and they need to be supported in figuring out what works for them. And sometimes that's not breastfeeding. Sometimes it's a little bit of breastfeeding and sometimes it's formula feeding from birth. But what we currently do in the health care system and in public health messaging is just so disempowering and it's really not fair to parents. So that's my that's how kind of like my own personal feeding training like threads in to being where I am now which I never five years ago if you told me I'd be working in an infant formula company no way but I'm so happy to be here to be able to do this work. It's always funny where you end up that
2
0:27:53
you never thought you would be right? Totally yeah. And it you're exactly right, it's very, the experience of motherhood and the journey is so humbling because I've been there too, like you're clinical, you think you, I don't wanna say you think you know it all, but you think you have a good grasp on things, you have experience,
1
0:28:14
and then there's just this curveball thrown at you. And yeah, it's just very humbling. So we unfortunately don't have, you know, that inherent community, like you said, where our grandmothers pass that information down to us. We don't have that holistic intervention and that, oh, just ancient knowledge that's kind of been lost on us and there's just not that sense of community. You know, there's a reason why we've had wet nurses throughout history, right? Some breastfeeding just doesn't happen. So it's very nice to, especially from your perspective, have that breastfeeding experience and background, the lactation consultant, and then the formula perspective. I love that. I also think that, you know, that community piece is so true and looking historically, sometimes some of the negative sentiment that you get in the formula space is like, well, people existed without formula for a long time. And, you know, of course, we know that babies died because of that, and it's not a good example of the epitome of a good, healthy society. But I also come, my nurse practitioner background is in endocrinology, and when you look at the research out there about breastfeeding, it's so sparse. Like, there's so many things we don't understand, down to truly even understanding milk production. And things, very basic things, like how thyroid hormones impact milk production, how age impacts milk production. Like, these are not, these are very basic, but we don't have good research on them. And I think that those things, along with everything that exists in our environment and just how we are changing as a species, is not reflected in our understanding of breastfeeding. And we don't have really good science or recommendations to talk about these things. And so they that's really unfair because they probably do impact our feeding experiences and the lactation community does the best job that they can to kind of educate on the sparse research that's available. But we we just need to better understand breastfeeding too. If we're if we're going to be kind of shouting in women's faces that they need to do this thing, but then there's actually no good research around the science of it, that's very unfair. Exactly. Like you said, there's so many perspectives to think about from the endocrinology perspective, and just even like age. We don't talk about age. We label pregnancy geriatric or senile now if you're over 35, but we don't talk about milk production with that. So yeah, that's a yeah. And when I, you know, when I talk to really holistic lactation providers they're like, yes, I see that my clients that are older, whatever that may mean, you know, and they're having their first baby, like that biologically is challenging for your body to make a robust milk supply if your first baby is at 40 plus. And no, there's no education about that. Like no one is talking to these patients about that. And I don't think we have good research to support that either. That's just anecdotally what they see in their clinical practice. Yeah, that's a great point.
2
0:32:04
I'm hoping that there's research being conducted on that.
1
0:32:07
I think that sometimes there is, research is just so small scale. There isn't the funding there, unfortunately. And that is something that we hope to be able to support in the future, I think, at Bobby. We want more research about all types of feeding as well. I love that. I've noticed, and you can probably attest to this too, from the European journals, a lot more forward thinking and research with herbs and breastfeeding and just holistic lifestyles, that that research just isn't done in the States as much. And then, you know, like you said, what research we do find, it might be case studies or small clinical trials, but not the double-blind, randomized control ones that are the gold standard. There's this idea that there's like two aisles and you kind of, either you're like a super crunchy home birth mom who's exclusively breastfeeding and living in a field, or you're like a formula feeding C-section parent. And that really just like limits your options to feel like there's these two worlds that you have to choose from. And so when it comes to feeding, I spent 95% of my feeding journey believing that if I used a drop of formula, I was just drawing and betraying my breastfeeding experience. And that is just so far from the truth. Like, work with a feeding professional, understand milk supply, but these are just tools that we have. Just like I'm sure even for someone who just wants to use alternative medicine, like sometimes you got to take an antibiotic or sometimes you need to take an over-the-counter medication. I just think that people can feel so much more empowered when they pull back and look at things holistically rather than creating these kind of false barriers for them. And I would say the same thing to some parents who start using formula and feel like, well, my breastfeeding journey is over and are really sad about that and don't want that to be the case. I think sometimes that happens prematurely because we create these two paths and they think like, well, I started using formula, so that's it. When really, there are plenty of other options, whether it's just nursing that baby at night if that's what they want, or finding a way to combo fee that meets their goals and needs. So I think just really emphasizing that it's a spectrum and people can feel empowered that they get to choose where they lie on that spectrum. Yeah, that's such a great point. So our mantra kind of of the podcast and our brand is good, better, best, right? There's always options, there's always variability. And it's just important, I think, to consider the experience and the individual with the approach.
2
0:35:33
Like you said, kind of letting go of these pressures that society has put on us one extreme or another.
1
0:35:43
Yeah, yeah. I mean I think that it's taught me a lot about my own health as well. Like I existed in a kind of functional medicine space for a long time and the experience I've had with being a parent and feeding and birth has taught me that it's actually not good for me to be so restrictive about what I consume or to be so paranoid about every single product that's in my home. There's what's best for me. I love that you said good, better, best. I think that spectrum is different than what people might think. Like, it's what's best is what actually makes you mentally feel your best, what makes you happiest. And sometimes that's not going to be, like, what you would think of as best from a conventional recommendation
2
0:36:45
or health perspective. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. You've given us so much knowledge and I'm sure our listeners have just soaked it up and you've given so much guidance with both brands of course and then your background with the CLC. And where can our listeners find your products if they're interested?
1
0:37:07
Yeah, so for customers who want to purchase the products they can go to hibobby.com and then there's also babies only products that is I believe babiesonly.com yeah babiesonly.com. If you are a healthcare professional so whether that's in lactation or a chiropractor, physician can go to bobbymedical.com and you can email us at medical at hi bobby.com and we can help you get products for your patients or patient education materials about both brands. Awesome well thank you so much I appreciate you taking the time about both brands. Awesome well thank you so much I appreciate you taking the time today. Yeah of course thank you.
Transcribed with Cockatoo